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Jonathan

Of course I will. I do think that animals only have rights because we, as humans, say they do or do not. Ultimately we are the deciding factor. Maybe, unknown to us, they do possess morals and thus moral rights, which we will never be able to know, but we obviously disregard any rights that they have, other than the ones that we clearly define for them. I argue that language is the most obvious barrier. We cannot ask the wolves if they feel happy they are protected. We cannot ask them whether or not they feel they have rights and if so have they been violated. If we could communicate with the animals would it matter. No, because we are HUMAN, We are THE species. LA Especie! We are the top of the chain. The only ones who feed on us...is us. Yup, as I expected it is right there in the Bible. I love this Bible reading thing!!! Let me quote for you Genesis 1:26: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." So I think God basically covered it all there. So on the fourth day God created little critters and animals whales and fowls and then decided on the fifth day that it was a good idea to make Man as the DOMINATE speices.

Of course the rights among animals differ depending on species. Knowing that we create, set-up and destroy the rights it should be noted that we do not discriminate within "race" of the species, but only between species themselves. We protect what we feel should be kept around. Why do we want these certain species kept around? For our enjoyment and selfishness ultimately. There is no other reason. We do not do it for their well-being, although I am sure there are those who are sincere, but we as a global society protect them out of pure selfishness. We do it to keep the human machine rolling along. Although Chris and I are arguind two seperate points, mine being mainly just a rant brought on by his subject content, we do share overlapping ideas. I for one think this Dribben character is nuts. The word, my friend is racism, not taxism or something to that effect. Racism does exist. No one can deny it. How would it be impossible to classify the Homo Sapien into different races? A race is a race. there are different races, just as we classify species, we can classify race. Of course doing so is unecessary in some regards, but necessary in certain others. Racism is.

Clearly the dog/wolf issue is one, once again, that stems from fear. Humans know only to keep their species moving forward. Would these laws be in place thousands of years ago. No. Because we started to become domesticated and then slowly domesticated animals around us, who did not ask for it, we now have to have laws to portect what we have created. We wanted to have control over the wild beasts that stole our meat and ate our crops and maybe our babies. We dished out the ultimate HUMiliation and made them our pets or raised them for food. We are still in control. We now put the animals in zoos (for good causes??) to show our ultimate hand. Haha, we have you all in cages. You are here, but for our amusement. The Bible says we are dominate and that is how it shall be. Of course this domesticating of animals goes back before the Bible, but the Bible does a nice job of justifying it.

So now we protect ourselves from the wolves, but protect the wolves from harm. Get rid of any menacing half breeds that would only lead to problems for US. For PEOPLE. For the RULERS of the world. Canadian Government, Hitler, Wolves, You, Me, we are all animals. We act like it all the time. Keep reading Ishmael!!!!! I can never stop thinking about Planet of the Apes. What a concept.

Jonathan

Ok so I forgot many points that I wanted to make. By the way I loved the post. Way to reference your sources. Haha. Anyway, I think you said that these animals (wolves maybe) have a heart a mind and a soul. However, not every HUMAN is thoroughly convinced that an animal...and I use animal this time refering to all animals other than us...has a mind and a soul. Indeed science has shown that animals ahve hearts. Sometimes we eat them. Sometimes we use them to replace our own. Science however can not proce that any animal, ourselves included, has a soul. THe mind is a little sketchy too. Maybe the mind is part of our brain. But the mind is much like the soul in that it is not necessarily attached to the body, physically anyway. Can you decribe the physical attributes of the mind or the3 soul? So I think we as humans know that we have a mind and most of us are convinced that we have souls. But how can we assume this about animals. I mean one hand, why woulldnt they have souls and minds. They are thinkking creatures much like oruselves, but they are not like us. We are HUMAN and they are ANIMALs and thinking is questionable for them. SOme would argue that they only do things by instinct. Others 2would argue that instinct takes some form of thought. Either way they animals clearly cannot think at our level. I dont think we can ever know this, but we "prove" it with science. We will always say this about animals because we are the dominate species. If it was ever declared that a bird was smarter than humans the world might actually go nuts. We measure our intelligence with IQ tests which a bird would fail...so we call them dumb...or not as good of thinkers as us. They cant talk our language so they are dumb. Parrots can mimic our speech so they are really smart for animals. But why is it judged against us? BEcause of our stance. As far as souls go...who knows. I believe everything has a soul, not every living thing, not trees and plants, but animals yes. Can it be proven...?? Nope...im falling apart with this...just some ideas to ponder...

chris

What distinguishes intellect from instinct? How can you can you say, with such conviction, that animals are not as smart as humans? (Wait, was there conviction behind those statements?)

There is one simple factor that has enabled the Homo sapiens to populate the globe and seemingly dominate it. The factor is evolution, and not evolution of the mind but opposable thumbs. Yes I am aware that other primates have opposable thumbs, so why are they not ruling the world instead of us? Just wait for it, remember planet of the apes…you know the scene at the end, it was earth. But apocalypse forecasting movies aside, why are we the dominant species on the globe? Many factors involved in natural selection, and pure Darwinism. We, co-evolved with several hominids early in our history, and simply being in the right place at the right time enabled us to continue to survive.

Opposable thumbs, enabled us to co evolve with the other hominids, but do they make us smarter than any other animal? No, the fact that we have spread, and now cover the globe is not a measure of intellect, if so Rats would be regarded as the smartest animal after humans. With out much persuasion many people would regard the higher primates as being “intelligent animals”, as well as whales, dolphins, and elephants.

The way we classify intelligence is an unfair measure to use to classify animal intelligence. In fact IQ tests are very bias even among humans, and now different testing systems are being employed based on a more holistic view of each individual. Is a bird truly not smarter than a human? Can you walk with out a map from Thunder Bay to Florida, and find food and water to survive. Can you build a shelter to protect your self and you’re off spring? Could you do it without hands? Instinct or intellect? Is it not human instinct to survive, and procreate as well, and the world we are build to that is simply a mater of or instinct. We need shelter, warmth, water, food, and the society’s we have built are simply ways of providing that for us

As for the soul, and the bible…well I am going to leave that to theologists and anthropologists to battle out. Personally I don’t care; all I know is that I see evolution and natural selection happening around me now. What came first the chicken or the egg is inconsequential for both are delicious.

Is Dribbin nuts? yes. Does he have a point? Definitely. However at this late hour, lacking both a knowledge of taxonomy and a text book I cannot defend my, or rather his, point. But rest assured I will be brining it up again.

So I will leave you with my all time favorite Dribbin quote, the humor is lost obviously due to the lack of context, yet it still seems fitting
“Where’s the beef?’

The TRUE Bill

Chris, this is one of the most interesting posts I've read on the web! Thanks. Your argument touches on so many different things at so many different levels, it is difficult to comment. It's not about wolves...I get that...if you know what I mean.

To weigh in on one facet, however, I would contribute this. Regardless of why we got here, I think that the reason we (humans) are where we are is because of our ability to...well..reason. Clearly, it is our conciousness--no...our ability to identify and communicate our thoughts in a detailed and coherent manner that sets us apart. It is our ability to share our thoughts regarding the metaphysical as well as the physical. Do other animals have this ability? To some degree, I am certain. Clearly, however, there is some line that humans crossed that other animals haven't. Somewhere along the line, we became more than sentient, but super-sentient.

The trick now is, what does that mean for other sepcies that are merely sentient? That's the question now, isn't it? I believe that this question will become most troubling when we come across alien life on another planet. When we discover some sort of organism on Mars or some other planet in our system.

What will that mean? Odds are, it won't be as intelligent as humans. It may not even possess out capacity to reason. What if, though, it is sentient? If we follow the STAR TREK model, we would respect it on par (or even above par) with our own species. Yet, if we do that--allow that this alien species has inalienable rights equal to or greater than our own (hence, the whole Prime Directive thingy), what will that mean for other species here on our own earth?

Under this scenario, I can see people actually leaning toward your Hitler comparison.

What an interesting time that might be!

In the meantime, keep talking, Bright Eyes. Perhaps one day you might unlock the secrets of the Forbidden Zone. ;-)

btw--thanks for the mention in your sidebar. I fear I don't deserve such praise. Know, however, that I was just as--is not more--impressed with all of you. You guys are on the right track. Stay in the inquiry! That's what it's all about!

Jonathan

well...this is fun ....blog wars...anyway...it is late...but i cant resist...
we do have opposable thuimbs and they did get us this far without adoubt, but we have the smarts to use those thumbs. I dont think it can rest solely on the thumbs alone. and we coexisted with other HOMinoids...are they not the very very close relatives of humans...the DOMINATE species. It had to be one of us. true about the nstinct, but why the inventions?? All we really need is the life of a mendicant. We dont need these massive buildings that shoot up from the gourn...these roads...these planes...trains and autos...bombs,,,implants...false teeth...watches...why all this stuff...where does it come from. all we need to survive is food shelter warmth and some water... i think insticnt takes care of those things...and yes our insticnt is to survive...the survival of our species is crucial...and i guess in a way that is what we are doing with all the stuff...but it is ironic that we are not hunted. our greatest threat is ourselves. by fearing the end of our species and continually fighting for survival we will in fact not survive...i understand that birds migrate but i think that is all they know...i mean yes it is instinct...and we live by instinct too, but i am still lead to believe that it it just more than the thumbs...although i do not and did not claim that i was smarter than any other animal...i dont think...i just meant that that is the general view of humans. also note that the comment was written, as most everything i write, out of pure sarcasm. i also think that it is hard to compare me walking to florida while a bird gets to fly. come on...they have wings..they are designed for that. indeed i could fly to florida with shelter and food - probably some chicken and a roll - and some water and maybe even some coke or pepsi in one of those clear platic cups that the airline provides for me. and indeed i as a human took care of all of it myself. walking...hmmm....if the bird walks with me...i will walk...but i see your point...i also mock the iq tests...because when it gets down to it...who can ever have the authority and true knowledge...whatever that is...to say what or who is smart and how it is measured. the oracle at delphi said that socrates was the wisest of all men because he was aware that he did not know everything, that he was not the smartest man. i still dont agree with dribben...i think what he said is basically abusrd unless taken further...where is further...i had it at one point, but now is lost...i too see natural selection and i also see natural deselection...with technology the worlds view of darwin and such becomes further and further away...we need a third hardcore opinion...to mix it up a little here...relflecting back on what i wrote i like it...it took on a view of what the world of humans have generally cooked up forthemselves and a lot of it stems from ishmael...so in fact i dont think i did actually say that animals are not as smart as humans. I did say that as humans we have a general theory of intelligence that is all our own. it is a measurement of human intelligence and as you say is actually bias among humans. of course it is. I laugh at these tests. Obviously one can never test someones intelligence because we have no idea what that means. and to compare our intelligence with that of a bird is like apples and oranges...we say that birds communicate by chirping because someone studied this for a long time and made a conclusion...but how can we really ever KNOW. wee dont know anything. we learn everyday but is it in the right direction...or are we learning into a dead end...into nothingness...i know i am just rmbling now but these are things i think...and you will know when there is conviction...haha...if ever...blogs rule.

Jonathan

i change the word mendicant to the word bucolic and place lifestyle behind it.

Jonathan

grr... beat to the punch by an american...but i do delcre myself the wisest man alive becaue i said that we needed a tird...third opinion and we got it and it helps so much. I my comments before his appeared...but he psted first...sly devil...anyway hes brought it together...this is why you have to love bill. he said what my brain could not come up with...amazing..but again the human idea that we out do animals...it is hard to deny...yet how can we compare really...this fence is not comfortable

Jonathan

i know this isnt the main post anymore but i was checking the news and i saw this article and i thought it at least had something to do with animal rights and how we fear everything. how we cage animals for our amusement or study...why should we study them...why not just elt them be. someone gets maimed so what. we are supposed to share the world. But we make it a point to be the kings. heaven forbid a wof eats a baby. that sucks but you should not turn around and shoot the wolf for doing something that is natural to him...just like france should not ban the headress of muslims and other religious symbols that are meaningful....

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?oldflok=FF-APO-1110&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20040319%2F1250761989.htm&sc=1110&floc=NW_5-L1&photoid=20040213BX102

Michael

We have every right to sacrifice animals.

Chris

very insightfull mike, please feel free to continue to post you well thought out remarks any time.

Chris

very insightfull mike, please feel free to continue to post you well thought out remarks any time.

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